Just because you’re teetotal doesn’t mean to say that we all should be.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a drink in your off-duty period so long - as has been said - that you are fit for duty the next day and there are sufficient duty bods to take care of any issues arising.
It’s irrelevant whether or not we’re being paid - how can the ACO expect you to be ‘on duty’ for 168hrs of the week that you’re at camp? The RAF gets pissed-up in it’s spare time and so long as you’re fit for your next duty period, no-one gives a toss.
Just because you’re teetotal doesn’t mean to say that we all should be. [/quote]OK, so I’m biased
[quote=“Gunner” post=6076]There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a drink in your off-duty period so long - as has been said - that you are fit for duty the next day and there are sufficient duty bods to take care of any issues arising.[/quote]I happen to agree and I think that should apply to all who may be of legal drinking age so long as there is a means to maintain a physical separation between those who have been drinking and the under 18s.
There needs of course to be a duty officer/female/driver who remains alcohol-free throughout a daily duty period. I’m normally happy to be duty driver as I’m not actually disadvantaged particularly by that
here lies a difference between “on duty” and “on task”
duty i read as whenever Cadets are under direct control and/or supervision irrespective of activity (ie 24/7 for camp)
on task is when completing the activity in hand for the day’s activity - ie shooting from 0900-1700 task and duty are the same, while on camp the program until “stand down/socail time” is the task - delivering the program, but duty remains until the end of camp
There is absolutely nothing wrong with staff experiencing their respective Messes, and drinking sensibly and in moderation at the end of the working day. What is wrong is when they go over the top and are either unfit for duty the next day, or when they decide to ‘visit’ their cadets after the bar closes.
I refer the gentleman to my previous comment; a Camp Commandant should stay dry for the whole of the Camp.[/quote]
I’d suggest that if the camp has a nominated “duty officer” for each day, who remains on duty for the entire period, then the camp commandant should be able to drink sensibly (ie, have one or two).
Much the same way an RAF station will have an Orderly Officer/Duty Officer for out of hours use.
Moderation and commonsense have to be the order of the day, as an adult if you can’t apply these, then IMO you’re in the wrong organisation. The only people I would expect not to consume alcohol are the DO and duty driver, if not one and the same, but everyone else as long as it’s in moderation no problem. I would apply the same to cadets over 18 as well, but that’s probably a step too far for the ATC. If you overdo it expect whatever consequences come your way, without complaint.
[quote=“chaz” post=6097]
I’d suggest that if the camp has a nominated “duty officer” for each day, who remains on duty for the entire period, then the camp commandant should be able to drink sensibly (ie, have one or two). [/quote]
Perhaps it’s just me, but even if I have a Duty Officer, I still refrain for the whole week as ultimately, the buck stops with me. If something serious happened, I would still want (and may be required) to be involved.
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=6108]Perhaps it’s just me, but even if I have a Duty Officer, I still refrain for the whole week as ultimately, the buck stops with me. If something serious happened, I would still want (and may be required) to be involved.[/quote]That seems best to me.
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=6108][quote=“chaz” post=6097]
I’d suggest that if the camp has a nominated “duty officer” for each day, who remains on duty for the entire period, then the camp commandant should be able to drink sensibly (ie, have one or two). [/quote]
Perhaps it’s just me, but even if I have a Duty Officer, I still refrain for the whole week as ultimately, the buck stops with me. If something serious happened, I would still want (and may be required) to be involved.[/quote]
If that’s what you’re comfortable with, then one can’t really criticise it.
Up to you, cygnus maximus, but I think you need to relax. Unless you are unable to stop after a couple of drinks - and I’m sure you are - then you are simply putting yourself under too much pressure as Camp Comdt if you can’t hand over to the duty officer at, say, 2100 and go for a couple in the bar before turning in. Unless you don’t trust the dutyO, of course, which might spoil a couple of your nights (surely most of the DutyOs are sufficiently experienced to leave on their own?)
Otherwise you set a bad example to the junior officers. They need a work/life balance at camp as much as the rest of the time; if you make a song & dance about not going to the bar because you are the CC, they will feel they can’t either and will resent it.
Mind you, one of the few staff disciplinary matters I have had to deal with on camp was a DutyO who was about to order himself a beer at the bar - in uniform…
On my last camp as a cadet, the Camp Comdt and my OC had to take a cadet home - a 450 mile overnight round-trip. Fortunately, whilst neither had been duty officer, neither had been drinking before they realised the cadet needed to return home, as, in order to make the journey and return in time to get a little sleep, they needed to alternate the driver for each leg of the journey.
Whilst I’m not advocating a “dry” camp for anybody (including the Camp Comdt), sometimes it pays to have at least two members of staff who are not drinking on any given night.
[quote=“RightOn” post=7749]On my last camp as a cadet, the Camp Comdt and my OC had to take a cadet home - a 450 mile overnight round-trip. Fortunately, whilst neither had been duty officer, neither had been drinking before they realised the cadet needed to return home, as, in order to make the journey and return in time to get a little sleep, they needed to alternate the driver for each leg of the journey.
Whilst I’m not advocating a “dry” camp for anybody (including the Camp Comdt), sometimes it pays to have at least two members of staff who are not drinking on any given night.[/quote]
How often does this happen in reality? And technically you have breach standing orders by doing so overnight. You gained in one sense and failed in the other.
I’m guessing a family emergency, but better to wait until you can obtain appropriate drivers than pile into the back of a truck or slide off the edge of a motorway. “Drive to arrive”.
[quote=“Operation Nimrod” post=7754][quote=“Perry Mason” post=7753]What would require a late evening 450 mile round trip that could not have waited til the next day?[/quote]
I’m guessing a family emergency, but better to wait until you can obtain appropriate drivers than pile into the back of a truck or slide off the edge of a motorway. “Drive to arrive”.[/quote]
You guess correctly, although I must admit I’m not entirely certain what you mean by “appropriate drivers”.
As I understand it, the journey was undertaken in my OC’s car, with one driving one way and the other sleeping then switching roles once the cadet had been dropped off.
I can’t speak for the Camp Comdt, but I’m certain that, if my OC (who was also the cadet in question’s OC) thought this unsafe, he would have waited until a safe arrangement could be made.
Oh, and my point wasn’t that this happened regularly, merely that you never know what might happen, so it’s best to have more than one person sober on any given night. If that wasn’t clear from my post, I apologise
But there were other ways to get him there - expensive, but possible. If it was a genuine emergency. I’m afraid that as CC I wouldn’t have authorised that trip at that time of night, and CERTAINLY not the return leg which wasn’t even an emergency.
Interesting question - do ATC sqns have any kind of insurance against this sort of thing? It’s only occurred to me reading this, but I think our school insurance would pay out for a taxi.
[quote=“tmmorris” post=7765]But there were other ways to get him there - expensive, but possible. If it was a genuine emergency. [/quote]When we’ve sent people home in the past it has tended to be by train. In the situation discussed here I’d think that MoD compassionate cell would have been able to sort something out.
