I would counter that things like the first London Bridge terror attack where the first officer on scene took on 3 armed men with a baton would’ve been considerably cheaper in cash and blood if he had been equipped to deal with the threat he faced.
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I have for this’n
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I hope we dont go the USA route with firearms. Yes we have tasers, but we could also have other disabling options that are just as effective. The day we arm more officers will be a sad day.
I don’t get the obsession with an armed police force being compared to America.
Pretty much every Western Nation has an armed police force without it turning into the US. The US style of polcing is necessitated by the second amendment, when you have that many guns in circulation it changes how you police.
The French and Germans have fully armed police forces and average about 14 fatal shootings a year (Frances has Jono Ed in the last decade now that they can shoot at you for failing to stop your car).
No they aren’t.
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See the difference between the 3?
We are way behind those 2 countries on officers carrying. And the obsession, with me anyway, is that there are often a lot of shootings that are put into the news. from the US (Shoot First, ask questions later, after 5 or 6 officers have emptied their clips into the suspect). Rarely have I heard of anything from Germany or France.
I get there, maybe officers who feel passionate about the job they do, but for me, the fewer weapons, the better. But that’s just from an untrained civilian with no connection to the Police.
Was it the shooting into a car on the street that an officer was charged or something that had armed officers questioning if they should continue to be armed?
*Just to add, there is no negative tone in my typing, as it could come across differently to many eyes. This is just me adding my penny worth of brain farts to a conversation, as I’m not a fan of uniforms having weapons, as in the case of the Divided States of America, it could make their officers believe they have some sort of God/Power complex.
It’s an interesting topic and one that certainly needs to be discussed properly and objectively at all levels. I can in a very very small respect understand the comments and apprehensiveness of members of the public and their arguments for not arming the police, however I despise the comments of “Look at America” and “The police will just shoot everyone” or “I wouldn’t trust them with a water pistol”. They are clearly people with poor interactions with the police.
Police Scotland had the right idea proposing a New Zealand or Norwegian model of arming response cops, where there are all trained and side arms or long guns are in a lock box in the car and available if required.
Personally I would propose bringing in side arms the same way taser has been introduced, whereby limited numbers are trained and authorised, this would provide adequate tactical options for spontaneous incidents like we have seen recently. It would result in only 1-3 cops on a response shift being armed. ARV’s would still be the go to resource for tactics etc.
I could go on and on, but I’m conscious of this not being a huge reply.
A few facts worth knowing. The success rate of taser is about 68%, it is not without fault with so many variables that come into play.
Northern Ireland - Routinely armed for over 100 years. Between 2014 and 2024 there have been 5 police firearms discharges. In mainland uk between 2016 and 2025……63 police firearm discharges.
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The difference between Britain and France or Germany is exactly the same as the difference between Britain and the US. But for some reason when ever it’s discussed people clutch their pearls and assume it will be like the US, which just isn’t realistic.
The thing with arming response cops is that a) that’s generally your least experienced cops and b) if you are saying all response cops need to be trained then you are saying everyone does, since when response is short they take from all over to backfill. (I’m not opposed to that, but it needs to be said).
Only arming a couple per shift causes more problems than it solves, look at last week, the first unit on scene had to go straight in, if you’ve only got 1 or 2 cars carrying then you aren’t solving the problem.
It also runs the risk of either the car not being available when needed (as it’s at a call) or as Police Scotland did when they merged limiting the calls that certain cars can go to. Response is short enough without having a couple of cars that you can’t use.
I’m very much for the Norwegian model, but make it everyone and don’t Fanny about with sidearms. If it’s only for an emergency go carbine for everyone, easier to train, easier to maintain skills and easier to hit what your aiming at if the day comes.
Happy to be corrected.
But wasn’t there a correlation between increase in arming of police and an increase in violent crime….
Would have to see the stats, but chicken or egg?
Then there’s also correlation=/=causation …
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The difference I was pointing out was that France and Germany have had their police officers armed for decades, whereas we stopped around the 1970’s. Introducing the arming of officers gradually now could be seen as turning into America.
I’ve had many conversations about why the UK isn’t armed, and yes, many are American friends who have said that it’s a feeling of safety, or they’ve said we just grew up around them.
I can see it being as popular as being a Reform voter. Again, just my opinions and thoughts.
We are more similar to European countries who arm their police than we are the USA in terms of attitudes towards firearms.
We and the Europeans are far more utilitarian about them; they are tools with a purpose and are treated as such. They come with responsibility and are allowed under a degree of trust.
In the USA, they are a right. You have one because you want one and are allowed one because, well, you’re allowed one. This more general attitude probably carries through to the more cavalier approach that their police have (and we’ve probably all heard about differences in police training).
Over here, they’re far more of a last resort. Over there, often plan A because they are neither equipped nor well enough trained for a plan B.
I think I’d be comfortable with a couple of PDW in a lock box rolled out in vehicles.
How we would account for those vehicles becoming targets for robbing, is a bridge crossing to plan for, though.
You still aren’t getting the point, why would us arming our police suddenly turn into America? Why would it not turn into Germany or France? (Or any other Western Nation bar Ireland for that matter).
The US system has to deal with the fact that they have over 400 Million firearms in private circulation, tansy fundamentally changes the way that you police. Neither we nor our European neighbours have to deal with that as buskness as usual.
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I’ve heard those buskers can be really threatening at times. Some openly carry what they refer to as an “axe”, brandishing it in front of members of the public to extort money from them.
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My feelings, my opinion would be that our UK officers would/could react 1st then ask questions later. We were not brought up as a gun nation like the US. Guns on their officers with their ballistic vests and looking like they are ready for war is normal for them.
We don’t have enough officers as it is. Growing up in the 80’s, you would always see Rod the Plod; now you are lucky if you see the PCSOs walking about.
Say 2 million Legal guns in the UK, with a population of say 70 million citizens, the vast majority are for farming and could be stolen and used in crimes.
I am not one for arming our Police. Have you seen the number of officers scared of cameras filming them? They barely know the rules of filming in a public space.
And don’t get me started on those with a drone who are allowed to use them, but police get called in cos Joe Public is worried, Rod comes along and starts mentioning Section 43.
Our policing is in a tangle, and the more I go into it, the more you will bite back, which is totally fine, because you know a lot more than me who only sees things on TikTok, which I don’t take at filming value, as I do have a little Google to further educate myself.
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Don’t have current statistics to hand (as ironically, I’m just off to use my legally held bangstick in a competition) but crimes involving legally held firearms are very rare (Plymouth, for example). Similarly, theft of legally held firearms is very rare.
Off the top of my head, I think (might be wrong) that if anything, there are far more self-harm cases using own firearms rather than events involving others.
Of the 615,627 firearms covered by a firearm certificate in England and Wales as at 31 March 2023, the majority (57%) were rifles and 32% were sound moderators. These proportions have remained stable over the last 8 years.
- 516,500 people who held a firearm and or a shotgun certificate, a 4% decrease compared with 31 March 2022
Probably better in-date data available, but numbers won’t have changed much.
You and I are using this same snippet of reality to suggest opposing potential futures.
That we aren’t as desensitised as the US, we treat them as tools to use when the situation requires it, acts against the slide into “shoot first, questions later”.
As a minimum arm all officers with tasers.
The extra training time required in ‘basic’ would be worth every penny.
If people insist. Teach them then and then they get their taser when probation finishes. Just incase they are a ‘wrong-un’.
But frankly I would arm with firearms - sidearms at least 25% of all coppers.
Neither are France or Germany and yet they cope quite fine with being armed.
The thing is that Taser isn’t designed to be used in isolation, it’s a less than lethal tool but is only really designed to be used under cover of a firearm.
The thing that people often forget is how dangerous a bladed attack is, just because cops get away with it day in day out doesn’t mean Taser is good enough.
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I give up with this subject, I’ll go back to helping cadets with queries