How well did that plan go? 
We lost Dundee & Central Scotland Wing and one other. Didnât Wales throw their teddies out of the pram when they tried to enact it there?
Yes we did. it would have created a wing of 44 units coving 2.5 million people.
GM Wing is formed of 37 Units and the population that it covers I would estimate at 3.3m.
(Based on: 2.7m = Greater Manchester, 370,000 = Cheshire East, 202,000 = Warrington)
All rather a bit closer geographically than the Welsh units Iâm sure youâll agree.
Progress update on the petition.
At 16:20 on the first day after the petition was launched it over took one that had been languishing in the system for very nearly the full six months, namely âTo allow soldiers who serve in the British Army to wear neat/trimmed facial hairâ. A very worthy result in itself!
At 20:30, barely 24 hours after launch it passed the 10,000 signatures required to ensure that the government will make a comment, whatever use that might be. Only 175 other petitions have previously got that far.
This afternoon, passing 12,952 signatures only a week after the announcement by the Minister, it became the 75th highest out of some 2,778 open petitions on the Governmentâs site.
75th might only have special significance to us, but Iâm sure most MPs will have a very good idea that this rapid rise represents a widely supported petition amongst all the other weird and wonderful ones.
With the best part of six months still to run, could it reach the 100,000 needed to trigger a debate in the house? If it was pushed out to family, friends, colleagues, RAFA, the BGA, the British LegionâŚâŚ Carol Vorderwoman even, then who knows. Everyone loves the Air Cadets.
Would it do any actual harm to the ACO at Sqn. level where it counts? I donât think so.
Would it do any good? Save a VGS or two? Almost certainly not.
Hold someone accountable for the whole ongoing shambles, or help to further concentrate minds towards making some actual progress? Hopefully.
Make some Minister think twice before selling off the base from under one of the surviving VGS, in further support of Chancellor Osbourneâs ongoing UK economy Ponzi Scheme? We can only dream.
What it will already do is allow anyone who chooses to write to their MP, to point out the high level of popular support that there is for the organisation.
Surely a petition cant do any harm and will show the strength of feeling amongst those who are trying to deliver the Cadet experience. MPs need to know these things, after all the are everyoneâs representative in the House and should be doing their bit for their local community.
Excise me if I am wrong but aren;t ATC Squadrons part of the local Community.
The PuS who issued the statement about flying and gliding, also recently made another written statement which totally ignored the question, making what was said meaningless.
In the present argument, the statement overlooks the basic fact that to fly, you needs pilots, so whatever size of unit you create, it wont achieve much without the fly boys and girls.
Also does this master plan, take on board the supposed Corps expansion by 2020, which potentially means even less Air time per Cadet than we previously enjoyed.
Mind you if the ATC does not offer what it says on the tin, the turnover of Cadets will continue unabated, which wont necessarily mean less bodies higher up the food chain.
Dont be afraid to sign, because it might just that you really do care, and it is you guys who deal with the Cadets on a day to day basis.
Aries
There are two types of people:
Those that say - it doesnât matter what I say nothing will change!
and those that think - If enough of us say/do something then something might happen.
The first category get what they deserve and the second might get what they want.
If everybody thinks that this is so significant as to question why they encourage their kids to join the AFC - and I do - then they may consider the ultimate option of withdrawing from the ATC. If they do this then the ATC is dead unless the leadership acts.
It is complacency/acceptance that allows for the leadership to become complacent.
I am an ex Submariner who falsely expected the ATC to be what it was in the past - giving youngsters the chance to experience things that there place in society might normally deny, flying is a very significant part of that.
I am also am an active participant in the local ATC.
Failure to provide these core opportunities may cause me to encourage my son to go elsewhere and I will follow.
If enough people suggest they will do the same than you can kiss the ATC goodbye.
I am already unimpressed with the support that wing give to the local squadron.
I wonder how what is the ratio of wing staff to cadets - I fear it will not be impressive.
Sort it out or go the way of the dinosaur.
and yes I support the idea of the petition - if it makes some people look inadequate then perhaps they need to look at themselves - grow up get a backbone and sort it.
As a submariner did you ever stand up to the command chain and petition people to change the system? Did you complain to a union over conditions?
â#balancedviewandnotrhetoricâ
There is a third type of person⌠The one who thinks:
âRight. Weâll, theyâre taking out the Vigiliant, but theyâre restructuring the Viking Squadrons and adding more Tutors to support more AEF. This is the situation weâve got (and itâs a hell of a lot better than weâve had for the last two years) so we need to accept it.â
Gliding is not being removed from the ATC. Even if we get a debate in the house they will simply be given the factual answer that âgliding is back on (having had none) and that more AEF is aboundâ. Do you expect that to generate some sort of response other than âAh, well that sounds like good news! Whatâs the fuss aboutâ?
I canât help but think that a group of people who âvolunteeredâ to follow the orders of the officers above them choosing to go outside the chain of command, against specific instructions from CAC, is going to achieve little other than winding people up.
The absolute worst thing I can imagine for the image of the Corps is for some dirty rag like The Mail to splash a headline which reads âNo more AIR in the Air Cadetsâ, which is exactly the sort of rubbish that will happen if people start spouting off to the wrong ears.
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There is another type of person COMPLACENT! we didnât volunteer to be sheep⌠just because someone with 2 bars and a scraper (S/Ldr for the younger types amongst us, yes Iâm a Flt Lt) or higher rank than myself tells me something it doesnât mean they are correct, sensible, or trustworthy. I have always questioned change if it was perceived as diluting the good efforts of the Corps and us volunteers, remember there is, and always will be a finite time in post for Regional and HQAC staff and âmaking a markâ on the ACO may be seen as âkudosâ rather than progress in sensible direction! Remember when AC Moulds made some monumental changes in the ACO when in post as Commandant? Yes somethings improved but the repercussions of some changes are still rattling us to this day!
BTW, I have it on good authority that OC 2 FTS is to retire in 18 months time⌠I hope that he leaves behind something to be proud of and not the void I suspect!
[quote=âwdimagineer2b, post:49, topic:2234, full:trueâ]There is a third type of person⌠The one who thinks:
âRight. Weâll, theyâre taking out the Vigiliant, but theyâre restructuring the Viking Squadrons and adding more Tutors to support more AEF. This is the situation weâve got (and itâs a hell of a lot better than weâve had for the last two years) so we need to accept it.â
Gliding is not being removed from the ATC. Even if we get a debate in the house they will simply be given the factual answer that âgliding is back on (having had none) and that more AEF is aboundâ. Do you expect that to generate some sort of response other than âAh, well that sounds like good news! Whatâs the fuss aboutâ?[/quote]
The restructuring of VGS is only any good for those sqns near to the VGS (as like now) to suck up all the spare slots and TBH they can add as many Tutors as they wish to, but unless you have someone to fly it, itâs a display item. One of the biggest problems for the AEFs is getting pilots, which is the one repeating reason prior to 5 AEFâs move, that meat we went from 6-8 to 4 slots, which was invariably called off on the Thursday or Friday prior to attending on the Saturday or Sunday. What has been mooted in the past few days after 2 years is pointless. Remember if this hadnât come out in The House, HQAC etc were quite happy to keep us in the dark for another 3 or more months. Even now there is no date for the return of gliding as a viable activity and the best we can hope for is 2 years. So at least 4 years with no gliding. If youâre happy with the promises fine.
[quote=âwdimagineer2b, post:49, topic:2234, full:trueâ]I canât help but think that a group of people who âvolunteeredâ to follow the orders of the officers above them choosing to go outside the chain of command, against specific instructions from CAC, is going to achieve little other than winding people up.
The absolute worst thing I can imagine for the image of the Corps is for some dirty rag like The Mail to splash a headline which reads âNo more AIR in the Air Cadetsâ, which is exactly the sort of rubbish that will happen if people start spouting off to the wrong ears.[/quote]
I donât see anything wrong with it. Wait for the next SDR and I will almost guarantee officers will write letters expressing their displeasure at the decisions.
If what HQAC, 2 FTS and 22 Gp have been doing for the last 2 years is robust and there is clear evidence of a planned project with all the requisite parts, what has CAC etc got to be worried about by a petition, conversations with MPs or letters to the paper?
I cannot think that anyone who volunteers in the ACO can be happy with the shabby service that the teenagers who have joined the Corps in the last 3½-4 years and it has been up to the standard expected and experienced over the last 75 years.
There is a huge difference to personnel serving in the Armed Forces & CFAVs âservingâ in the ACO.
Serving personnel are carrying out a functional job, & have limited options to query decisions made on high (or refuse postings, etc). On the other hand, whilst there is a comparable CoC as such within the ACO, I think that there is much more scope to pass reservations or suggestions onwards & upwards - all CFAVs are volunteers & doing what they want to do (hopefully!).
For this situation, every CFAV, ex-cadet, whatever, should be supporting this petition. At the very least, It should raise questions about planning limitations, communication strategy (was there one?), contingency options (none seen?), interaction between competing HQs, seeming reluctance to accept input from CFAVs, what else??
There is also a big difference in putting your name on the petition as Mr John Smith than putting your name on as Flt Lt John Smith RAFVR(T)
They way I see it is thus:
They are not suddenly taking away gliders and cutting flying places for our cadets⌠We have no serviceable gliders, and we havenât done for some time!
Regaining airworthiness is a long job as we know. Especially when itâs not just a case of being âout of hoursâ - They identified serious mechanical problems with the airframes.
So⌠It has been investigated and theyâve found a way to get the Vikings back into service. Great.
Theyâve looked at the Vigilant and said âit will cost x amount to get these ageing aircraft serviceable again. Alternatively, we cut our losses there and reinvest the funds into more Tutors and AEF, and into restructuring to provide a better gliding experience with the Viking fleetâ.
I am not saying that it isnât frustrating and disappointing to discover that there will be no more Vigilant gliding. Iâm not saying that itâs not a shame that those of us who live in the back of nowhere wonât magically have our own AEF set up 5 minutes from home.
I am not saying that itâs imperfect.
What I am saying is that itâs the situation weâre in and that whining about it (especially when weâve been asked not to for very good reason) is unlikely to change anything at all.
We donât know the costs involved; We donât know the extent of the airframe problems; We donât know very much about it at all. Therefore we are not in a position to make decisions or to judge that the decisions made by those who do have the information are âwrongâ. Our only option is to take that on trust.
We are never going to have the âperfectâ cadet experience.
Sure, weâd love to have more Aircraft, and more VGS and AEF all over the country but it isnât going to happen. Just as the NHS doesnât have the perfect outfit. Nor does the MOD. Nor does the DWP.
Nor does any other government body - because the UK doesnât have a bottomless pit of money.
If people want to go and sign a petition thatâs their choice.
Just because Iâm resigned to making the best of what weâve got (and what we will only get in this case) doesnât make me âcomplacentâ.
Iâd just rather focus on continuing to further develop and deliver the elements of the cadet experience that we do have control over.
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The Air Cadet Council oversee the ACO, HQ 22 Group oversee the ACO and receive input from the council. The RAF overlook GQ 22 Group, the MOD overlook all of them. If thatâs not enough people checking and double checking the options, Simeon MADEUPANAME from Basingstoke certainly doesnât have the answers.
If the petition complained about the handling and communications THEN i would sign it.
From elsewhere (sic):
Incidentally, I know someone who is in the ATC, and they recieved a snottergram via email instructing them to âcease and desistâ promulgating the petition via social media.
Anyone had this as a âformalâ communication? The petition link was on several Wg/Region Fb posts⌠Just checked 2 such pages, the link is no longer there.
Not had anything like that but it does appear to have vanished from my Wings page and Iâm sure it was there before!
Are you honestly surprised?
my OC brought it to our attention via our FB group chatâŚ
i was quite surprised being the OC he wasnât âtowing the party lineâ but has there been anything official either way??
My wing has sent out an e-mail asking that we do not mention the petitions in Sqn social media accounts, or take down links that we may have posted.