Why does it matter when someone gets promoted, they don’t paid anything for the privilege. If people got paid (not just VA for PTD) then I you can see why it would irk.
If people are following the rules about time to be promoted and others aren’t c’est la vie. Perhaps there is a greater need in their wing and the rules are used as guidance only.
What a silly thing to suggest. Without a rank structure, we may as well be the scouts.
We have a rank structure because we are a military youth organisation, not a youth club.
It seems that the rank structure especially the commissioned side is the problem, therefore sticking to it just because we always have, is why we seem to be in the mess we are in and have increasingly been for the last 20+ years.
Unless someone can come up with sparkling reason for people to commission other than to essentially run a squadron, people are not going to be falling over themselves. Of course we can keep going as we are.
One of the CIs on the squadron when I took over, was asked why he doesn’t commission and he looked in the WSO in the eye and asked “what’s in it for me?” the look on WSOs face and the fact he was speechless, said it all. After he’d gone home the WSO said never been asked that, but knew what he meant. This was 18 years ago.
The chap he asked was in his early 40s and a senior project manager for a company that designed and installed computerised control systems.
It amazes me that still today the same line is followed and people are just expected to roll over.
Yeah, there’s no difference at all between the Chief Exec and the casual admin staff…
In the workplace people can and do rise to very senior levels from the lowest. The last but one CEO started at the firm as a post boy and many Directors over the years have started in similar jobs.
When did we last have a CAS who started as an OR?
But there’s is no difference between staff in the Air Cadets except some choose to wear a blue suit and some don’t.
Just tell me why the rank tabs we wear make us better than people with none or a lesser one.
Been done to death already:
Not sure about a CAS, but we do have a Group Captain pictured who started as an RAF apprentice.
Either way, a rank structure is a significant part of who we are.
Also no one has said a rank makes someone better than someone without.
So why are we so hung up on officers running squadrons if rank doesn’t make someone better? Surely someone with no rank who has better credentials should be OC for instance than someone of the “right rank”.
Ditching the rank/hierarchy would see a lot of OCs bin it in an instant.
I think as long as that staff member is validated and deemed appropriate to run a sqn without killing the kids then it could be anyone
Our club our rules. You can go to the Scouts since you aren’t interested in rank or a rank structure
Make sense to me if you were in a youth organisation that was not set up to follow certain procedures
But this is the Air Cadets set up to resemble its parent service, there for we gave ranks in our organisational set up… as said before if you don’t like it nobody is forcing you to be in it woggle off!
But the continuing need to resemble the parent service is becoming the proverbial millstone, so something has to change. If it doesn’t change then it the prognosis for the future isn’t bright. We seem to have been limping along wrt uniform staff for more years than anyone would care to remember if they can remember that far back. So whatever happens the model has to change as it has been failing for years.
You can chuck all the childish comments like go to the Scouts, all you like, but they are just what you would expect when people aren’t able to accept the need for change. The change needs to be that the “rank” of the person in charge of a squadron is totally irrelevant to what needs to be done. It can be perpetuated in the parent service as the are an employer, NOT an organisation that operates on the goodwill of volunteers, who have day jobs, families and lives. I always thought being the CO of a squadron was the greatest thing, but that thinking soon evaporated and the greatest thing is being a member of staff and being able to help guide the youngsters who join.
Do we want to carry on “bullying” and lying to youngsters to get them to commission direct from cadet service? One ex-cadet now 24, who has been a Sqn Cdr for nearly 2 years, has said he’ll be standing down next year, as he’s getting married and his future wife lives and works 180 miles away that’s where he’ll be living. He’s a teacher so will just walk into a job. There are no more officers on the squadron or close by.
In our sector of 6 sqns we have two “junior” officers, 3 Sgts, 4 FS and 3 WOs. Only 2 of the OCs have youth on their side. Plus there are 3 cadets over 18 across the sector who are showing no interest in being staff and not very many who are over 17. I’ve got 2 who won’t be doing a DBS, so they’ll be gone.
Our WSO has been round trying to cajole people into commissioning and no one wants to and there is little interest in SNCO. I’ve told the CWC and Staff I’ve got 2-3 years before I hang up my hat for the last time, which has been met with some interesting comments, as I think they thought I’d be going out in a box. But I want to enjoy my later years and not feel tied to any one thing.
The staff on the sqn ask me why I don’t speak to them about uniform etc, my reply is we had a conversation and you told me your feelings and as you are adults, you know about the organisation and if you want to do it, you will speak to me.
You make some good points about the suitability of staff wrt to being in charge of a squadron in your previous posts.
However I think that there is an issue with the process of becoming staff and then the process of actually being staff. Furthermore, I think it is more important than ever to ensure we mirror our parent service since the recent controversial decisions wrt gliding etc. I think if we were to distance ourselves from the RAF then we lose a large part of our identity. It’s odd to say that but it is true, the RAF is a majorly significant part of our identity.
For example, the process for becoming an officer in this organisation is neither easy or quick. Whereas you can become an NCO after one interview and find out your result the same day. This in turn has a knock on effect to staffing levels. More people would rather become an NCO to get back into uniform as quickly as possible rather than wait for OASC etc, especially if their squadron has no uniformed members of staff. I make a generic statement there but it is just to make a point, I am aware of the differences between the two roles and people have their preferred route.
Bottom line is- the problem does not lie with rank structure, it lies with staffing recruitment and retention.
Hit the nail on the head…
There should be a standard approach to recruiting more staff and the CI application process certainly needs to be streamlined… Question is when are HQAC actually going to focus on this instead of poxy issues like T&L for WOs (sorry chaps!).
I personally believe the admin burden reduction would slightly help retain people - if it yields… But retention is the biggest issue for the org. I’ve met many WSO/OC Wgs who act like staff are expendable, when in reality if it wasn’t for the staff sweating their balls off they wouldn’t be at their level.
Disparity in policy application is rife across the board tbh.
There are some very interesting points being made in this thread.
As @Teflon has said, there are no practical reasons why we need 2 streams of uniformed staff on the unit.
Why not remove DE officer as an option, and have units staffed by CIs and NCOs?
Appointment to a commission could be on appointment to Wing Staff, with a minimum Prior rank of WO. They could Commissioned into the rank of FO, and take on the responsibility for things like H&S for 3-4 units, freeing up admin for the NCO IC?
Sir, you are a dangerous free thinker, report to Cranwell for re-education.
Isn’t that the ACF Model though? And isn’t that quite a cluster?
HQAC need to understand the problem relating to volunteering and not just expect people to flock in.
As I have said HQAC have to do a nationwide market research survey wrt community volunteering which would need to be a random selection of people on the street and for anything worthwhile you need well in excess of 1000 respondents across a target demographic and then an internal survey of existing staff looking at what makes them stay and why they will or don’t go for “promotion” for want of word, but not done through Bader. Then have the results analysed and then look into firstly retention and then recruitment. If you can get the retention right (not just habitation) recruitment gets easier as people will speak well of their experience, making people feel like they want to join.
If they don’t anything they do will just fail just like every single time so far.
