[quote=“chaz” post=15386][quote=“steve679” post=15328]
…how well a Cdt FS would accept being FS one parade night and then Cpl the next however would be telling![/quote]
It’s called maturity and “growing up”, and if they couldn’t deal with it, they may have been in the wrong place to start with. :)[/quote]
Quite right. The more difficult transition is of mindset, not rank. The change of rank makes no real difference - you are no lower in the hierarchy and, despite initial appearances, have actually climbed a step. The difference between being a cadet and being a staff member is where the minefield lay.
So, “Staff Cadet”, it is. If units utilise their Staff Cadets and SNCOs as they should, that transition should be eased.
I’m sure that Perry will know what the actual law is in this situation. Is it illegal for an 18 year old to be accommodated with a 14 year old? What ‘separation’ is legally required between cadets and staff, different ages of cadets?
[quote=“Tricky” post=15362]As a 17yr old cadet that is intending to continue as a staff cadet i thought i’d just throw my opinion in here.
The idea that at 18 i could no long be a cadet is to me terrible, mostly because once over 16/17 most of the good stuff becomes available, e.g flying/gliding scholarships, so that only leaves 1-2 years to really enjoy what most people join cadets for. Also there are times when having an 18+ cadet can be a good thing and act as a good role model to the younger cadets.[/quote]
Tricky, many 18+ aren’t around the sqn enough to be a role model to anyone. The large majority I come across (and talking to fellow sqn cdrs they find similar) start off with all good intention, BUT their academic and part-time work or full-time jobs prevent them actually being much more than occassional attendee. If you add in staff cadet at a VGS with a need to attend every other weekend this reduces their involvement at the sqn and therefore potential to be a role model. As a sqn cdr you expect some ‘pay back’ and for any number of reasons it doesn’t come, but you aren’t really in a positon to demand anything, pretty much as with adult staff.
You could say they are starting their lives in the real world (outside the school life bubble) and struggling to do things. To this end should this organisation not respect that the world for 17-20 year olds is a much different place to that of my time and even that of up to say the mid 90s. I have often thought the ATC operates in a time warp of something like a Famous Five world and only when it has to via legislation dips into the modern world. As I said up until mid 2009 there wasn’t really a distinction between over 18s and under 18s, other than the banality put in place by the ACMB in 2003, since 2009 we have had a division created due to the need to have CRBs and it has created more problems than it has solved.
To this end I have become to believe over the last 10 years (since the LASER review) that endng cadet service at 18 would mean that limited/diminishing resources could be better targetted at youngsters in the Corps and given that the average life of a cadet is 1½ - 2 years, the focus should be at the lower age groups and greater emphasis placed on their cadet experience.
This would in one go remove the problems of which separating under 18s and over 18s that have been created in the modern era of the over 18 cadet, because no matter how you dress it up they are still regarded by the Corps as cadets just look at the Standing Orders for camps. This would then allow them to focus on what they want to do in the Corps as proper adult staff, without the cadet tag hanging over them. Let’s be honest there is and has been very little for the averge cadet over the age of 18 for years, if at all, with the exception of a very few cherries that only a few are able to aspire to let alone achieve.
What happens at the AEF seems quite sensible, BUT it only takes one person to ‘cross the line’ and it becomes a world of pain.
If we had a halfway house it should not be a uniform one.
For me I want young staff who are prepared to volunteer as ‘helpers’ in a youth organisation, not just carry on, but only if they can wear a different badge on their cap. What I would say to those who think like this, you’re a long time dead … live a little. There is no glamour as uniformed CFAV and whatever sheen is percieved soon wears off, by which time it’s too late.
There can be access as now to various courses and development opportunities, which I don’t see much interest/uptake of at the best of times from younger staff. Because many work in retail and retail employers are not and never have been known for being agreeable to time off.
The way I’ve heard a number of 19 yo cadets talk about being a CI, it’s like listening to someone who’s done 30+ years in the forces and is facing not being in a uniform anymore and the general sense of belonging they feel. For Christ’s sake the most cadets will have done in a cadet uniform would be just under 6 years 11 months IF they joined bang on their 13th birthday. A sense of perspective is required. Hardly a length of time to lament its loss, IMO.
Whilst I agree with the rest of your post (and I’m glad to have spent some time as a CI rather than going straight into uniform), you’ve got to remember that the time period you’re talking about represents nearly a third of the young person’s life, and probably over half of what they can remember.
But this is where staff need to sit down and go through it properly and explain they have another potentially 35-40 years in uniform with little or no thanks for everything you do/sacrifice. In uniform the expectations for you to do things or go to things are much more than for CIs. Plus as a CI you can say things and be untouchable. I know a few old officers who are now CIs and have a whale of a time.
As I have said previously I’ve witnessed too many very good cadets go into uniform straight from cadet service who are no longer in the Corps and many who will not have anything to do with the Corps, purely down to the way they were treated.
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=15412]But this is where staff need to sit down and go through it properly and explain they have another potentially 35-40 years in uniform with little or no thanks for everything you do/sacrifice. In uniform the expectations for you to do things or go to things are much more than for CIs. Plus as a CI you can say things and be untouchable. I know a few old officers who are now CIs and have a whale of a time.
As I have said previously I’ve witnessed too many very good cadets go into uniform straight from cadet service who are no longer in the Corps and many who will not have anything to do with the Corps, purely down to the way they were treated.[/quote]
But, the little or no thanks that Uniformed staff get is still massively more than most CIs get from this organisation.
I agree with you MattB (but I am speaking as a very new CI, so probably don’t know enough to really comment).
It may be more appropriate that they are uniformed. As a CI I would expect them to have or want to obtain (fairly quickly) a specialism that they want to pass on, whereas I would expect the uniformed staff to have more general knowledge and more interest in the organizational aspects more appropriate to the uniform.
[quote=“MattB” post=15424]I really don’t get this whole “it’s important to be a CI” thing.
Why shouldn’t it be a uniformed role? We are a uniformed youth group after all.
Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with the existence of CIs, but I really don’t see any reason why it is felt to be a necessary step for everyone.[/quote]
I agree that it shouldn’t be made mandatory, but here’s my thoughts on how it helped me:
Firstly, spending time out of uniform gives you a slightly more external perspective on the organisation and the way it works. I think this is helpful because it’s important to know how new cadets, new staff, and the general public will see us. Once you’re firmly rooted in the rituals and habits of a particular organisation, it’s less obvious how ‘outsiders’ will view you.
Secondly, as I was ageing out as a cadet, becoming uniformed staff seemed like a brilliant idea. For me, it seemed like the ‘automatic’ thing to do (a bit like university). I’m starting my VR(T) application now after spending two years as a CI, and I think that I have a better appreciation of what is involved and expected (I took on a lot of responsibility as a CWO and thought I had a good idea of what it would be like to be staff, but in hindsight, I didn’t). A commission will be worth more to me because of this, and the experience I’ve gained will definitely help me do a better job.
These thoughts apply only to my personal circumstances, and I know loads of people who have gone straight into uniform and managed perfectly well. I think that each approach has its own strengths.
Off-topic: Something I do think should be made mandatory (maybe only for uniformed staff) is to spend a period of time at another unit. Everyone I know who’s tried it (including me) has found it helpful, even if they didn’t enjoy every minute of it.
[quote=“jacques” post=15426]
Secondly, as I was ageing out as a cadet, becoming uniformed staff seemed like a brilliant idea. For me, it seemed like the ‘automatic’ thing to do (a bit like university). I’m starting my VR(T) application now after spending two years as a CI, and I think that I have a better appreciation of what is involved and expected (I took on a lot of responsibility as a CWO and thought I had a good idea of what it would be like to be staff, but in hindsight, I didn’t). A commission will be worth more to me because of this, and the experience I’ve gained will definitely help me do a better job.
…
Off-topic: Something I do think should be made mandatory (maybe only for uniformed staff) is to spend a period of time at another unit. Everyone I know who’s tried it (including me) has found it helpful, even if they didn’t enjoy every minute of it.[/quote]
I was away from Cadets for two years after ageing out, and when I returned I had a completely different perspective. I was more sensitive to the changes that had occurred and the problems that I could solve; if I was already in the system I might not have spotted those issues. So on that front I agree.
Again, I can only comment with any authority what happens in my wing, but I’m fairly sure that the majority do spend time at a different unit before returning to their own. This can have its own problems though, where the temporary unit doesn’t use that person to their full potential, or simply gives them all of the pants jobs, because they won’t allow them to prove themselves. I’ve seen it happen, and it has a highly detrimental effect.
[quote=“MattB” post=15424]I really don’t get this whole “it’s important to be a CI” thing.
Why shouldn’t it be a uniformed role? We are a uniformed youth group after all.
Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with the existence of CIs, but I really don’t see any reason why it is felt to be a necessary step for everyone.[/quote]
There is a problem with many older cadets is that they don’t have what I would refer to as respect for CIs in the same way they do for uniformed staff. Thus if they go into uniform they still have this stilted view and it could take years to change, in the meantime irritating many CIs. Looking back as a cadet I didn’t really consider them as an important part of the Corps and fully appreciate what they did. Having been a CI I quickly came to realise the invisibility they can ezperience and the frustrations it can bring. If all uniformed staff have spent time as a CI they should have a greater appreciation, respect what they bring and understand their frustrations. Also as NG and jacques mention you get a much broader and different perspective of the organisation. We are a uniformed organisation but we do have a larger percentage of staff (in terms of status) who don’t wear a uniform, but in uniform you don’t neccessarily see the whole picture. However as a CO, especially, you need to represent their needs etc as well as the uniform cadre, through the command chain. If you don’t really understand it IMO you can’t really do this properly.
[quote=“incubus” post=15319]They are valid concerns but I believe that the position and ideal of Staff Cadet (as it is now) is important enough for us to aim to retain, fixing instead the areas where that ideal is being compromised.
Perhaps it should be a harder divide: I jokingly suggested that the “intermediate position” suggested earlier was in fact that of Staff Cadet - lets formalise that. Instead of simply being a cadet who had hung on, make it a tier of CFAV only available to those continuing service and offering greater opportunities while retaining some of the opportunities available to all cadets.[/quote]Since ACF PI to SGT training is now modular and will typically take 18-24 months (with or without sloth like action of county HQs)this would be the perfect opportunity to implement such a position.
18 and staying on, = PI. Still there at the end of the Mod4 = Sgt ACF.
It seems to me the problem with ‘staff cadets’ is the word ‘cadet’…
(And thanks for the chapter and verse, Baldrick. That’s answered something which has been nagging me for years about church choirs… which are similarly not covered.)
As an over 18 cadet I feel that it would be easier and beneficial to change the procedure the staff tend not to treat you as an adult your still “just a cadet” and you get treated as such the majority of the time. I think that it would be helpful to create a position for 18+ cadets (not uniformed) that allows them to not be seen as children still but allows them to train to become staff with experienced staff members. So you are a member of the ADULT staff team (because after all at 18 you are an adult) but you are able to train before going for uniformed staff.
To my knowledge, those accommodated with U-18 trainees are CRB’d. At Cranwell, I shared a room with someone who was previously sharing a room with an U-18 (officer) cadet, and thus had a CRB. I’m not sure whether that would apply in larger situations (eg if sharing a room with 17 other people) but it’d certainly seem that it does apply when accommodated with one other person.
I’ve always liked the idea of using the ACF Potential Instructor model. Cadet service ends at 18 and they go straight into uniform as a Potential Instructor with adult status for two years. This time is used to develop and train the individual but they take no overall responsibility for cadets during this time and are supervised by experienced staff.
As said earlier, the problem with our system is the word ‘Cadet’ - the ACF model is essentially the same as ours except we have this pseudo cadet/adult status which blurs the lines.
This has been covered over on the more recent Staff Cadet thread, including a link to the ACMB meeting where they discussed the potential changes. One of those options was the Cpl (ATC) to fill the PI role you describe which was roundly hated by the cadets.
