No gliding.
Flying in the week only.
No .22" shooting (unless you have private weapons)
Lots of admin for field craft
Lots of admin to do anything off the sqn
6 weeks to clear a PiPE
A staff recruitment process that is not fit for purpose.
Is it any surprise we cannot recruit or retain staff or cadets?
Is the organisation dying on its feet or despite every effort of HQAC the staff at the coal face still manage to keep the organisation going?
2 Likes
No gliding - yet
Flying in the week only - not here, we have two slots coming up on weekends in the next two months
No .22 shooting - not sure about this, getting rather mixed messages on here!
Lots of admin for FT - we do the admin
Lots of admin to do off sqn activities - we do the admin
6 weeks to clear a PiPE - sounds a bit excessive (and Iām pretty sure my wing will do it much faster if thereās a better reason than just not getting round to sorting the admin)
DofE, BTECs, made up camps to make HQAC feel special.
it still has a point, that point is not as sharp or shiny as it was 5/10 years ago, but it still gets kids experiences that either simply arenāt available otherwise, or are only available if mummy and daddy have very, very deep pockets.
that said, the rank incompetence of HQAC and 2FTS mean that the gap between the ACO and Scouting has been massively eroded, to the point where the extra hassle we have to put up with is almost no longer justified by the benefits that being in the ACO rather than in the Scouts brings.
it wonāt, imv, be long before that cost/benefit ratio nudges even further and the ACO simply wonāt be worth bothering with and people will move to other organisations with similar results but far less aggravation required to achieve them.
1 Like
While we have a point I donāt think the opportunity based one what it once was, it has become more of one for a few braided individuals to perpetuate RAF lives without having to really do anything. The only point I can see, but itās not unique, is for personal statements on CVs.
WRT cost and availability of activities, compared to when I was growing up nowadays there are numerous outdoor activity places and other things which kids to do as birthday treats. Even schools run days out sponsored by local groups. I know this does come down to individual areas in terms of āwealthā, but I canāt believe many squadrons are offering something every weekend.
We used to take our kids to a local outdoor centre to do a group of activities for days in the school holidays, they were more expensive than if theyād been cadets, but they did 5/6 things during the day, whereas in 99% of cadet things theyād do one or two and spend most of the day sitting around. It was an easy day for us and the kids got something out of it and on a few occasions we took their mates (their parents paid) to make it more of a day.
The only ādeep pocket activitiesā are flying or gliding, but again if the kid has an interest done as a birthday treat they would get the same as they would as cadets. One of the neighbours took their son and his mate for a chopper flight, the other parent paid half of their sonās costs.
A combination of 22 Gp and HQAC, have to decide what we are and then provide the resources aircraft, gliders and pilots so we can be unique again among youth organisations and then make it far easier for us to deliver everything ā¦ scrap the admin and endless bloody courses.
nah, the deep pockets activities go much wider than that: sailing will cost you Ā£800+ for a week, the trips to Llanbedr or Windermere would easily hit the Ā£600 mark, a days stalking - which is about the closest you could get to shooting and fieldcraft - would set you back at least Ā£250.
my Sqn did a walking weekend in the Shropshire Hills in the last month - stayed at an activity centre run by a friend, minibuses, qualified Sqn staff etcā¦ and food (not to mention a lot of Sqn kit), for Ā£25. commercially that would have topped Ā£120.
A week on a sailing yacht with a sail training organisation is Ā£200
including accommodation & food?
Yes. You live on board and all food is included.
I send my cadets on it all the time.
PM for details if you want them.
Regardless of the cost are they unique and open enough? None of the foreign camps and activities are what you would regard as cheap and the lead time for payments is ridiculously short, effectively meaning only the better off and only kids go. When my kids were at school the lead time on high cost trips was at least 9 months and one was about 2 years with easy payment plans plus now the schools can tap into PP money for the less well off etc. I will bet that when the Cyprus, skiing etc camps come out and theyāll want the money within a month or two. Even working as I do Iād be stretched to come up with Ā£300-Ā£400 in that timeframe. Even asking parents for Ā£100 next month would be a stretch for many, even with support from the CWC, you canāt do it for everyone.
I try sell the things like that and due to the fact that spaces are so limited which means especially the younger cadets donāt like going on their own, ie only one from the sqn.
Weāve done things with a couple of sqns with the qualified staff paddlesports, archery, walking, which is cheap silly money and still itās flogging a dead horse. Between us we had 26 cadets.
You need to voice your issues to your wing commander (I bet you wonāt though). Our overseas camps are published with three-four months lead save for the option when someone drops out and the reserve bails or when we get thrown an extra place from region.
What makes you think that the Wing Commander would do anything? They probaly wouldnt care because they have rankā¦
Some are better than others iām sure, but when it comes to issues which affect cadets participation in events and the opportunity for all demographics to have the opportunity, they tend to listen. Those who donāt, donāt hang around for long.
Having talked to an ex Wg Car, many but thankfully not all full time staff at the upper echelons of our wonderful organisation do not respect or value the opinions or experience of the volunteers.
Sorry youāre wrong ā¦ but it falls on deaf ears. Iāve posed a question or made a point and ask if theyāve heard anything and they havenāt even bothered raising it. I get a very real sense that it is not worth the effort as the people they are asking are incapable of affecting or even effecting change. They are servants and brought up through their careers to tug fetlocks if they want to get on and carry this on into their dotage in the ATC.
I tend to increasingly feel that with a couple of exceptions namely sports and sometimes the training WSO are broken pencils. After every WSM an email should get fired by postholders if their are problems in their area, but no. Even if it is pointless, what is the worst that can happen to them?
Mind you Wg Cdrs have given us updates in the past from convention and it seems, from their comments, it comes across massively that HQAC is self-serving and worried about their own little sphere and unconcerned about the wider organisation, unless itās something we, people who volunteer, havenāt done or arenāt doing. They seem to come up with grand plans and or invent working groups have a couple of meetings then stop as they have lost interest/donāt have the will. We need people like Nelson, Wellington, Montgomery, Ford, Dyson, Sugar and similar who seem to be people who cut their own furrough and prepared to annoy people who said no and not just followed along.
When we speak to new/prospective cadets we are like market traders flogging stuff that is nearly at the end of its best before date. I try and make it sound wonderful but donāt if I sound really convincing. When I think of the experience I got from the ATC what cadets get now significantly fails by comparison. One of the reasons we stay is to give back and open up opportunities to young people, I feel like the organisation is failing them and us.
Again variations in areas comes into play, in L&SER for example itās now free to go on IACE, the Wings pays half the cost and Region pays the other half. (One of the first things the new Group Captain arranged as its the most expensive thing in the ACO and he didnāt see it as fair).
3 Likes
Iām ot in DAWSā wing, but we find similar results. SUcks to be in your wings.
1 Like
Iām not in that Wing/Region anymore either, buts itās an idea Iāll be suggesting if I ever manage to corner our Groupie.
I work in a school and all the expensive trips have a long lead time. The science dept run a trip to Space Camp, MFL do trips overseas and the minimum period is a year, the only dept that has shorter lead times for long trips is humanities. The pupils and parents are advised about Space Camp at the beginning of Yr 8, selected by Christmas and go in Yr 10, giving parents a period of 20 months to pay the cost which is around Ā£1900, all in.
I found the email the CO forwarded to us about the Cyprus camps this year. The document was dated 14 Apr for a camp in August and the airfare of Ā£517 was expected by June and then there was messing of Ā£180. The short time is largely down to the reliance on the RAF to provide the camp places.
So parents expected to make a decision as to whether the cadet can go and cough Ā£517 (given the paper chase involved) within a month and then another Ā£180. How many parents have Ā£700 just sitting there for a holiday for their kids, forget the BS about the experience, educational etc put about by the ATC Cyprus is a holiday and not cheap. Why the airfare is over Ā£500 with all the ābucketā airlines, just shows how much the people organising these lack imagination. Would they pay that for a holiday flight? If this was a school trip it would have been put forward in the timeframes I mention above.
In my last couple of years as a CO we wanted to know when annual camps were and cadets selected by December, but were told it canāt be done, because we have to wait for the RAF to say who will be hosting camps. We have ended up not filling the paltry number of camp places we are allocated, as parents have booked holidays etc months beforehand and given I work in a school we have to book early to get the better deals and camp has clashed with our holidays for the last three years.
As to whether we have a point as an organisation, we do, but itās nothing like it was and we seem to be in more of a fight to keep cadets interested, not just because of the distractions of modern life. We will be fighting the 3 year GCSE starting in Yr9 across the country if not already doing so. The homework loading has increased for our Yr9s, parents with older children have commented on it. With a proper flying programme all over the country things may be somewhat easier as I cannot remember ever feeling like we have to do so much as a squadron to backfill and do irrelevant things like first aid. We can play the military angle all we like, but it is becoming less and less relevant as a job option for youngsters today and as shooting was always the main military activity (aside from drill and keeping a uniform smart) but that has all but died for many cadets, given the reduced number of staff qualified and wanting to go through the hassle. I certainly wouldnāt do it again.
When I did my OSC, the point about flight costs came up. Itās because the ACO have to book a large group of tickets on one A/C and have flexible terms (last minute changes to names). The airlines donāt offer any discount because of bulk - they fill A/C anyway so our bookings are just another customer to them (flying in peak time often). When we asked about Military flights from BZN they laughed and said no one (at either end of the org) wants to get embroiled in that hassle.
I agree about those cost, but as an OC the camps arenāt a surprise, and every year I used to have a rough idea of when theyād be scheduled and who might want to go, so my committee were already worded up to support fund if required - and they did.