I am sure you are correct. However, the fact is that the cadet is very unlikely to want to go to all the bother of getting a 6424 and getting a doctors appointment just to get the chance of an AEF flight; he is too busy flying!
I would definitely test the water based purely on the CAA Class 2 = actioned by an AME = supercedes anything anything his local GP can come up with - & as the situation is not covered in ACTO35, the blanket rules would seem to apply (stupidly!).
If that can be given a âyesâ then it might permit a variation to be added to ACT035; whilst there wonât be hundreds of cadets in his position (of having a specific medical condition + CAA Class 2), Iâm sure that there are (or will be) others.
if you look at the ACTO again you could take Cadets gliding as PAX rather than students.
ie - an AEF flight rather than training.
you only need 250 launches for passenger flying.
will 2FTS really expect you to offer a report to indicate you didnât offer instruction? surely any passenger flight offers some âinstructionâ if only to indicate what the aircraft can do âhey watch thisâ
to answer the question how is a 50 winch launches be âsaferâ - they have more experience of winching and potentially more experience of when it goes wrong? ie the closer to the ground = the more chance things go wrong. youâre 300 hours spent at 2000ft are far less âdangerousâ than the 50 hours spent within the circuit after a winch launch.
I donât know I am second guessing HQAC. [/shrug]
why it is launches based rather than hours does seem odd to be.
Thats the think, I dont even winch launch, I aerotow. Which is a much safer type of launch for one.
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Have you contacted the ACTO35 sponsor to seek their guidance? I would suggest that âaero-towâ (i.e. being in the glider) = the same as being winch launched.
As our local gliding club do aero-tows, I have asked the question; I would even consider than being towed behind an aircraft has a higher âdifficultyâ facto than a winch launch, so will see if 2FTS will consider bias, e.g. one aero-tow = equivalent of 2 winch launches.
Do you have any statistical evidence for saying that? They are both extremely safe forms of launch.
Come to think of it have you ever done a âstring flingâ?
Going back a loooong time to a military gliding club, I donât remember a single cable break (or any other issue) with an aerotow, compared with assorted cable breaks with the winch launches if the winch driver was too enthusiastic or the glider pilot put too much strain on the cable (difficult, I know!).
An aero tow has slower acceleration, but of course different risks - engine failure of the tug for example.
I think the main reason for winching problems was that, unlike aerotowing, the guy in charge of the launching equipment could think of better places to be. In earlier air cadet days the entire launching process (winch driver, cable truck driver and signaller) was in the hands of cadets, some of whom could be âout of sight, out of mindâ and forgotten for long periods.
I can remember at least one driver erecting a little sign saying âSidi-bel-Abbisâ by his winch.
The tug engine failure case, particularly with a heavy two seater behind, could easily leave the glider out of gliding range of the airfield.
I donât know which is âsaferâ, but they are both so safe that the argument becomes a bit ridiculous.
Without wanting to cause further debate, there is clear statistical evidence that Aerotowing is safer than winching. You only have to look at the British Gliding Associationâs Safe Winch Launching initiative to see that from 1975- 2005 35 people were fatally injured in the UK and many more aircraft were broken, the statistics are publically available on their site.
Things have improved now for sure through better teaching like a lot of things, but it can go far far more wrong than an aerotow, aerotow failures even with heavy two seaters are very rare compared to winch launching and when they do happen most airfields have fields off the end to land in, in fact itâs really no different to a PLATO/EFATO.
Its amazing how many facets of aviation are minefields, which I experienced frequently in 50 years of aviating. My superiors in the early 70s had to go as high as the C in C Flying Training Command for me to carry out a certain role. Then again I remember when I was at CFS when the V force was wound up and surplus to requirement co-pilots were rerolled as QFIs a lot of them virtually had to be taught to fly over again. One of the fascinations about flying is that you cannot be an expert in all aspects, although some believe they are,
There are lies, damned lies and statistics, you donât quote the aerotow statistics, nor the proportions of each type of launch that take place. All I can say is that when a tug I was towing a two seater with decided that one of its cylinders didnât need to be attached to the engine at 50 ft over the hedge with a motorway embankment in front of me, I would have much rather have been in a winch!
Aerotowing also doubles the number of aircraft in a busy circuit.
I was involved some test flying many years ago to find a way to stop tug pilots being killed when gliders got out of control behind tugs at low level and I can tell you that, even at altitude and knowing it was going to happen, the stalled tailplane upset is the second most frightened I have been in an aeroplane.
Aerotowing is very safe, so is winching. To make it safe, both should be approached with caution.
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Again, Iâm only quoting pure facts, the statistics are publicly available. 9 Deaths (mostly tug pilots) on Aerotow compared to 35 on Winch. All public through the BGA. 60-70% of launches in the UK are winch yes. Iâm not denying any of the things you have experienced, I am exceptionally firm with students on not getting too high and stalling the tail.
But after witnessing a winch incident this year that ended up with a written off aircraft and very lucky only partially broken pilot it is a stark reminder of the risks and why the Safe Winching Initiative has been hard pushed over all other training in the syllabus.
As you say, both should be approached with caution.
What the testing showed was it was not how high the glider got on tow, I have a photograph of a Ka13 in stable flight with the tow rope at an angle of 45 degrees above level. This test ended when the Ka13 pilot had the stick fully back; this situation had been achieved by gently climbing the glider.
What the tests proved was that the angle of the rope is not critical (we tested a tug hook that automatically released at a set angle), it was the upload on the rope that mattered. In fact there were a couple of upsets that occurred with the rope angle considerably less than angles achieved in normal flight. What mattered was the violence of the manoeuvre.
From the tug end I found that the single thing that prevented the âtailplane stallâ upset was for the tug pilot NOT to pull back hard, without the out-pulling match between the tug and glider the situation rapidly became divergent and the rope broke solving the problem. It was significant that a large percentage of the incidents occurred with very experienced tug pilots.
From my end I can tell you that the upset resulted in considerable negative âGâ in the tug and a near vertical dive all happening extremely quickly with the stick still hard back.
I changed my whole approach to towing after these tests. For a quiet life I found that fighting an out of position glider by using rudder was not a good idea (Chipmunk fin/rudder can stall as well) preferring to let the tug yaw (effectively putting the tug in front of the glider again) and then turning back on to the heading I wanted.
What ultimately solved the problem (or at least reduced it massively) was a greater use of nose hooks in the newer gliders and a policy (probably now forgotten) of taping up belly hooks on gliders at all aerotow sites.
Back to the subject, perhaps we should take into account that a great deal of winch launching is carried out at clubs where the airfield and the organisation are probably less than ideal. Aerotowing brings a level of operation that possibly leads to better safety. We must not confuse the inherent risk in a type of operation with the other factors. The ACO has an excellent record of safety in winch launching.
For the record, I do consider aerotowing a better launch method for teaching a soaring pilot; the ACO is not about teaching more than first solos.
> One more airline pilot, one of the youngest in the UK who started flying with the ACO at age 13âŚ
Went solo at 16, started pilot trg on her 19th birthday.
There are far too many cadets now who arenât getting the opportunity to love flying. 
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And here I was quietly observing then this sprang up.
Firstly, over what time period are we talking here? Also, how many of these stats were BGA and how many were ACO? (the answer to the last one is biased towards those who would have to pay for a practice launch failure)
Time Period is since 1974. All of the stats are from the BGA. I canât find any data from the ACO.
But the BGAâs findings are very comprehensive and well respected by many foreign gliding bodies. (We must remember also vikings do technically still have BGA Numbers!)
I have only given my input as XN150 wanted statistical evidence that aerotowing is safer than winching which is undoubtedly true. Obviously I canât speak for how the ACO operates but itâs hardly as if the ACO is immune to any of the problems that the BGAâs Safe Aerotowing/Safe Winching initiative discusses, both initiatives have been exceptionally successful at reducing accident rates and the latest one being drawn up is on Stall/Spin accidents.
Again, all of this data is publicly available, if any of you are active in Gliding in the slightest Iâd be surprised you havenât come across this.
EAs I believe. Not really of unique use with the arrival of the 120TP next year and consequent lack of a Tutor MELIN requirement. Those EA frames around the country in the UAS/AEF system will, I suspect, be back filled from the classic fleet used by the EFT squadrons at Cranwell/(Barkston).
EASA
LAPL
AME
PLATO
EFATO
EAâs
120TP
MELINâŚ
All Swahili to this former infanteer! 