Gliding "paused"

Everyone Flying
838

The only thing I see that gliding (proper) has going for it is that it is relatively cheap to perform and can (in theory) provide easy access to a limited flying experience for a large number of cadets. As a serious aviation training tool however it is a dead-end.

I always preferred the Vigilant experience. Whatever the reasons behind the design of the chimaera that is the Grob 109 it was able to provide a more consistent, assured and progressive training syllabus at quite a low cost (especially compared to AEF). It was an acceptable alternative to a properly designed light aircraft.

839

THE main thing is we start delivering so that cadets can be given a practical interest in aviation as per one of our aims.

To that end we need whatever is the cheapest, most reliable and ā€˜future proofā€™ option.

Frankly the winch launch isnā€™t the most reliable system to get cadets into the air, if the number of hours Iā€™ve spent sitting in the VGS / on the airfield as the winch(es) are knackered is anything to go by and it appears the Vigilant is akin to an old car that is kept going for sentimental reasons and therefore not particularly future proof.

Into the future (c.2019) when gliding is potentially back on the menu we need something that is financially viable in an on going sense, as whatever happens as an organisation I can see greater financial scrutiny of what we do and if as I understand it the gliders are now under the RAFā€™s ā€˜careā€™, they could be more susceptible to financial decisions and may need more begging emails from CAC to keep them going.

840

In my experience, a ā€œpractical interest in aviationā€ ā‰  ā€œflyingā€.

It needs to me more immersive than that and that is more in line with what the Viking school (I last visited in 2000) is able to offer.

Viking: cadets manhandle aircraft onto the flight line. cadets help attach the cable. cadets wave a baton and shout commands. cadet flies in glider. Repeat.

Vigilant: cadets sit in caravan. cadet is put into an aircraft. Cadet flies in aircraft. cadet removed from aircraft and sits in caravan.

For a really immersive aviation experience we need to be able to have cadets at all levels (ie, not just VGS staff cadets) getting involved with as much of the process as possible, from helping marshall aircraft, helping preparation, being involved in walkarounds, drying wings, helping to strap other people in, even looking at the paperwork involved in the operation and of course actually flying in the aircraft. Some of these activities would need to be closely supervised but others less so.

This does mean that the GIC students are ā€œgetting in the way of the VGS staffā€ but to me this is no more than the cadets in my squadron ā€œgetting in the way of my admin workā€.

Gordon Moulds started off the RACs because he got bored as a service instructor waiting on an airfield during a gliding visit. He wanted to be able to gave cadets occupied with other things in between flying. While the RAC project has some benefits it was a flawed concept from a flawed perspective - the answer was to make the visit itself busier and more fulfilling. After all, taking a day out of your life for a 25 minute flight sucks and that can be a hard sell, even in the Air Cadet Organisation.

841

But ultimately sitting beside or behind someone getting a hands on flying experience is paramount in terms of practical interest.

Did (or would) the VGS staff have the capacity to get cadets doing them sort of things and would it appeal to the average cadet? The running around after gliders has always been in my experience as a cadet and later as staff as a way of keeping cadets from extreme boredom.

842

I could not agree LESS. Winch launch gliding offers the cadets so much more the the alternatives of flying or sitting in a caravan on the airfield being bored. Conventional gliding needs a great deal of manpower to make it work from holding a wingtip by a GIC cadet to driving a winch for a staff cadet/CGI with lots in between.

You learn a lot about flying by osmosis and being out there doing the work and talking to everyone works.

I cannot think of a better way too occupy large numbers of young men and women than making a conventional VGS happen.

843

Too true. God for team work, learning & a better immersion in the activity.

I just hope that the locations of the proposed sites will not require extended travelling or overnight stays at weekends. It is sometimes difficult logistically to get cadets to such events anyway without the need for staff to have to stay overnight.

844

I was thinking here specifically about the flying training aspect.
I covered the greater involvement of bystanders and the benefits to the cadets in my subsequent post.

845

As far as I see it, for the foreseeable future, the VGS system will be playing catch-up for basic ā€œget cadets into the air.ā€ Until this has been returned to some semblance of normality, I would even favour sponsored gliding scholarships, etc, via BGA facilities, where towed launches would be feasible.

Hey, thatā€™s a thought - letā€™s go for towed facilities at VGSā€¦ :wink:

846

Two birds one stone!! Do a tow go off for a fly around and then come back, then repeat.

I bet thereā€™d be some brain numbing reason why we couldnā€™t do it put forward by the higher ups. Probably because it would need to parts of machine to work together ā€¦ that ainā€™t gonna happen. Theyā€™d need to invent another dept to provide another well paid job with lots of golf/garden time. Iā€™m sure thereā€™s a number whoā€™d like a Wg Cdr or Gp Capt FTRS role.

847

So was I. You learn about flying by being immersed in it and everything that goes with it, not sitting in a caravan playing computer games. Actual air time is a heady mix that requires thought and conversation afterwards. In my day AEG was always much more popular than AEF for the very reason that you were involved.

On my first AEG (as it was called) for most of the day I was teamed up with a slightly older staff cadet on Mk 3 retrieve. We roamed the airfield in a Land Rover and trolly getting gliders back to the launch point ASAP. That staff cadet later became my boss; I learned more about flying from that man than anyone else. A year later I became a staff cadet and made the acquaintance of another staff cadet who became a great friend and retired as a senior RAF officer. The three of us had lunch together last month to celebrate 50 years since those days. Old fogeys we might be, but we still agree that air cadet gliding has taken a lot of wrong turns, motor gliders being the most wrong.

848

I do realise that this may be in jest, but in case itā€™s not it shows a complete lack of understanding of aerotowing.

849

"Made by: Earl Howe (Minister of State (Ministry of Defence) )

HLWS591

Air Cadet Aviation Relaunch

My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State and Minister for Reserves (Mr Julian Brazier) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement.

In April 2014 all Air Cadet Organisation gliding was paused due to airworthiness concerns with the Grob Viking conventional glider and Grob Vigilant motorglider fleets utilised by the Air Cadet Volunteer Gliding Squadrons (VGS).

Substantial operational, technical and commercial negotiations with a range of aerospace leaders in this field have failed to find a value for money approach to successfully repair and recover all 146 gliders. Consequently a comprehensive Air Cadet Organisation review has proposed restructuring this activity. It has been decided that the best value for money solution is to recover at least 73 Vikings, a reduced Vigilant fleet of up to 15 aircraft, combined with an uplift to Grob Tutor fixed wing Air Experience Flights (AEFs).

The reduced glider fleet will be operated by significantly fewer, but larger, VGS, which will have a regional focus and be better integrated with synthetic training and increased AEF locations. The number of Grob Tutor aircraft beyond 2017 for AEF/ University Air Squadron (UAS) use will go from 45 to 70 airframes, enabling the enlargement of existing AEFs and the formation of two new AEFs. Regional VGS hubs, which have the facility to provide overnight accommodation, will be also created across the UK.

The Volunteer Gliding Squadrons that are due to be disbanded are: 611 Squadron currently based at RAF Honington, 612 Squadron currently based Dalton Barracks (Abingdon), 613 Squadron currently based at RAF Halton, 616 Squadron currently based at RAF Henlow, 618 Squadron currently based at RAF Odiham, 624 Squadron currently based at RMB Chivenor, 633 Squadron currently based at RAF Cosford, 634 Squadron currently based at MOD St Athan, 635 Squadron currently based at RAF Topcliffe, 636 Squadron currently based at Swansea Airport, 642 Squadron currently based at RAF Linton-on-Ouse, 662 Squadron currently based at RMB Arbroath, 663 Squadron currently based at Kinloss Barracks and 664 Squadron currently based at Newtownards.

The Volunteer Gliding Squadrons that are due to be retained are the Central Gliding School and 644 Squadron currently based at RAF Syerston, 614 Squadron currently based at MDP Wethersfield, 615 Squadron currently based at RAF Kenley, 622 Squadron currently based at Trenchard Lines Upavon, 626 Squadron currently based at RNAS Predannack, 631 Squadron currently based at RAF Woodvale, 632 Squadron currently based at RAF Ternhill, 637 Squadron currently based at RAF Little Rissington, 661 Squadron currently based at RAF Kirknewton and 645 Squadron currently based at Topcliffe (from October 2019). 621 Squadron currently based at Hullavington will be retained at RNAS Merryfield.

As part of this process, a number of regional gliding hubs are to be created. We also expect that 2 new Air Experience Flights will be created, 13 AEF and 14 AEF. It is anticipated that 14 AEF will be located in Northern Ireland.

While work is undertaken to set up this new structure, the future locations of these Squadrons remains subject to the outcome of MOD estate rationalisation due to announce later this year. While it is likely that many Squadrons will remain at their current locations, we are working to ensure that, where this is not the case, flying opportunities will be made available to Cadet Units within their region and any new locations will be as geographically close to the existing locations as possible.

We recognise that this means that some uncertainty will remain for our cadets, but we are confident that this new structure will maximise flying opportunities for them.

As VGS are run by volunteer staffs, this will not result in any job losses, albeit volunteering options will be affected. The RAF is extremely grateful for the volunteers that support each VGS; without this support Air Cadet gliding would not be possible. Consequently we will develop a crossover plan which will enable many volunteer gliding instructors who become surplus on affected VGS to convert to Viking; transfer to a formally established ground cadre within a VGS; transfer their instructional skill sets into the units of the mainstream Air Cadet Organisation; or to retrain to fly the Grob Tutor in the expanded AEF construct.

The RAF remains committed to Air Cadet flying and will ultimately increase investment in the VGS and AEF sites which will remain to include the provision of residential accommodation for cadets and staff. This will enable those cadet units which have to travel greater distances to the VGS to undertake a residential weekend, with better associated force development and ground training opportunities alongside the gliding and flying. With the introduction of glider simulators, funded by the RAF Charitable Trust, the Air Cadet Organisation have developed a common syllabus for cadet flying which better integrates and allocates cadet flying opportunities between realistic synthetic flight simulation, glider flying and an uplift of AEF flights.

We will make a further statement when we can say more on basing."

850

Interesting read. Interesting read.

851

Indeed interesting. Increase of AEF

852

That is a lot of VGSs weā€™re losing there.

853

So have we still got to wait until the review is finalised to get anything from HQAC?
Still donā€™t understand why the fixing has to wait until the review.

855

Do HQAC know about this? Why no comment or press release from them or CAC yet?

856

Given this is now all over facebook, you can imagine HQAC scrambling around to put something official out today.

2 Likes
857

Itā€™s a joke, the whole lack of information and us at the coal face are the last to know or find out via Facebook and nothing official. What about tonight when we go to our squadrons and cadets have seen this and start asking questions? weā€™ll have to say the same old thing, ā€œIā€™m sorry but I know as much as youā€. Someone up top needs gripping and made to get their house in order.

858

You probably all need to read this: